Welcome to Most Popular, the podcast about pop culture and the impact it has on society. I'm Dr. Adrienne Trier Bieniek. I am a professor of sociology and I will be your host. Here's the thing. Transcription by ESO. I don't know about you all, but once a week I get that notification on my phone that tells me how many hours I've averaged at staring at my screen for that week, and the shame.

Oh, the shame. I momentarily feel like how on earth do I spend so much time on my phone? Then I think about all the things I do with the tech in my life, like sending emails, getting directions to I've lived in the same place for 12 years, and I still use Google Maps to get to different places. It's amazing that I used to just like pull out a map or memorize it.

I grade papers, I make lists, I listen to music and podcasts, I watch TV. I guess it all starts to add up, right? And that makes sense, but not, not to mention the random stuff that I Google throughout the day, like the stuff we kind of all randomly Google, but we won't admit to say that we Google it on a podcast that you make for your students and like, The rest of the world.

That makes it sound like I'm looking up dirty things. I'm not. I just have a lot of questions about things I see throughout the day and Google answers it for me. So I've been paying attention to, I've been paying a lot of attention really to the data that is coming out about my screen time and I've been paying attention also to the studies that have been, produced over the last probably four or five years talking about screen time, like the Centers for Disease Control released a statistic that found that young people ages eight to 18 are averaging seven and a half hours a day in front of a screen.

Eight to 18 averaging seven and a half hours a day in front of a screen. There is data that shows the impact this has on everything from our mental health to our physical illness. So I found someone who knows how to a lot about this stuff and can put it all in perspective. So Emily Churkin is called the Screen Time Consultant.

That's her title. She has made a career out of advising families on how to deal with the amount of screens we now have in our lives. I'm very excited to talk to her. I have a lot of questions and I really hope you enjoy this conversation. My name is Emily Cherkin. I live in Seattle. I'm a parent. I'm a former middle school English teacher, and I'm currently the screen time consultant.

So I work with families, schools organizations, anyone who's interested in learning more about what I call becoming tech intentional. I love the phrase tech intentional, by the way. What's your, what's your background? What's your education? I know you said sociology is in your education, but what's your, what's your background?

So my undergrad degree is in sociology and music. Actually, I was a violinist and then I decided to go and get my master's in education, which I did through Lesley University in Boston or in Cambridge, Massachusetts, while I lived in New York City. So it was a sort of It was an early learn, like, remote learning experience, and I'm talking, it was 2000.

Like, it was way ahead of its time. So, it was a really cool experience because I could live in New York City while I also took graduate level classes. We did, like, once a month we'd meet in person. We had some, you know, our syllabus was like, we just sort of did our own independent study. And it was a great way to do it.

But it was weird because I didn't actually live in the city where I was studying. Getting my master's and I knew I wanted to come back to Seattle someday and teach. But then of course the irony was I didn't get a cert as part of that program. And in order to get state certified, I would have had to do it in the state I wanted to live in.

So it really, it was one of those, it kind of worked out the way it did, but I ended up teaching in independent schools because they didn't require that. And I spent 12 years in the classroom working with seventh and eighth graders, half of that teaching middle school English and half on a media literacy sort of thing.

anti bullying, social emotional curriculum that I cobbled together from several other sources, but was really a lot of my own design. I love this. This is so impressive. Also, as a side note, my aunt, my favorite, I call her my favorite aunt, but my aunt was middle school for her. I think 30 years she did it.

So I have a special place in my heart for the folks. I mean, everyone goes, Oh, seventh grade. I'm so sorry. And I'm like, I love seventh graders and I have a sixth grader right now. So like my own kid and I just. I understand this age group really well. I have a lot of empathy for them. It was my worst year of school.

So I think part of me was like, I get to help these kids have a better experience. And part of what led me to the work I do now was that when I started in the classroom in 2003, and I left in 2015, I mean, I literally spanned the no kid had a phone, no kid had social media to 95 percent of my students did by the time I left the classroom.

And at the same time, Same time, I was also being asked as a teacher to do a lot more online stuff. So grading online and posting assignments online. And I hated that as a teacher to be very clear. Like it took my students away from me. It pushed me to a computer, pushed them to a computer. And all of a sudden parents started getting involved too, which was a different challenge.

Because now instead of these 12 and 13 year olds, who I really wanted to build autonomy and independence and skills that really matter for future success. Now, mom and dad are emailing me about their homework assignment. So it undermined a lot of what I was trying to do. And at the same time, kids are coming in the classroom and they're like, Oh my gosh, you know, there's this group on social media and they're being really mean to me.

And you know, so and so didn't invite me to this party and I saw this picture. And I mean, this is like my space, Facebook early days, right? Like no kid is on Facebook anymore, but. You know, it evolved. And so here we are now, whatever, almost 10 years later with only 10 years. I mean, to be clear, it's only 10 years later that this is like evolved so quickly.

Like I really think. I wish we could go back to 10 years ago sometimes because it was a simpler time. No, I feel the same way. One of the things I really stress in class is that it takes a lot to change a society, but tech is the one thing that we have embraced and have just no problems with. Like we drank the Kool Aid.

Yeah. Yeah. We drank it fast too. I mean, if you think about civil rights, LGBTQ rights, women's rights, how long it took and how much people are still struggling for those things. And yet tech. Like, you know, we got a computer in our pocket and we all just ran with it and it's crazy how fast we've embraced it.

Exactly, and in such a short window, you know, I think people will push back and be like, Oh, everybody's always afraid of new technologies, but it's the exponential change. I mean the fact that we've gone from literally zero to artificial intelligence in ten years is, in terms of the public experience, I know a lot of this has been in behind the scenes for a while, but like it is just fundamentally changed parenting, teaching, learning, childhood, you know, and society, I mean, it's, it's big.

Yeah. We have on my campus, we're talking about doing a conference on AI to start to kind of educate folks. And it's so funny to me because. AI is one of those things where you're either terrified of it or you understand and you can kind of work within the confines of it. And the people who are terrified just really cannot grasp that this thing is here and we're going to have to deal with it and that that fear is not great.

But also the, the, the comparison I keep making, and I think people are really sick of me saying this is like when the typewriter came out, people thought handwriting was going to go to crap. Like people just thought. I can't figure out if this is real or not because now there's a typewriter involved. So technology brings its own fear.

But totally, totally. Yeah, I hear that a lot as well. Like I get a lot of parents will say, Oh, I played video games as a kid, and I turned out fine. The thing that's different today in my, my view of technology and why it's a little scarier. And I agree with you that the fear mongering around AI doesn't make it.

Safer or better. Like that doesn't it's already here to by the way. I mean, anytime you type something and you get the predictive tax, any of that's all a I driven already like we're already using it. But you know, the thing I always just add in is that the way in which the products are designed today. is different than an old school typewriter.

You know, the fact that there are algorithms and manipulative design techniques that tap into our neural pathways. Like I always say to parents, this isn't a fair fight. It's not you versus your kid. It's you versus a hijacked neural pathway. And so, so it's, yes, I agree with you. And it's more complicated because of that.

Like when we start messing with brains, like that's. I mean, it sounds so apocalyptic, I realize, or zombies or whatever, but like, but it is worrisome to me, you know, and that's where I, you know, believe in the young people and the parents and the teachers who are like, wait a second, this isn't actually what's going Best for humanity, like that part, this is a good transition.

So what's what you draw a lot of connections between parenting and screen time. And I'm curious if you could talk about that. You know, I think probably the most common common questions are like, is there an appropriate age in Florida recently? I'm not, I'm not going to share the opinion on this, but in Florida recently, we I'm going to cut that part out.

In Florida recently, we passed a ban. We, the state passed a ban on screen time or apps, social media under 16. And the first thing that I did when I heard about this was I walked into my classroom and I was like, all right, guys. There's, this ban has happened. How fast do you think you could get an app to Right.

Yeah. Exactly. And I mean, in seconds, they were like, here's what you do. And like, they were like, worst case scenario, you just go get a VPN. Like there was Exactly. Exactly. I call that digital whack a mole. That's really good. So what do you, how do you approach this when you talk to parents about like what age is screen time appropriate?

Should my kid have a cell phone? Is there an age for that? Like what, what's your kind of general thing for this? That's a great question. And I get it all the time too. Like those are really the two questions I get most frequently is how old, you know, when should my kid first get a phone or have access to social media and what parental controls do I recommend?

And I'll answer both of them because they're really commonly asked. The thing about an age Well, I, I think there is value to a general guideline, you know, looking at the American Academy of Pediatrics, but even they don't say much about any screen use over age six. Part of the problem is think about when you were 16 and all the 16 year olds, you know, like, weren't there some of them that you would literally trust with your lives and others that you wouldn't trust to like carry your, your lunch bag.

I mean, the problem is that 16 isn't some magic number where, you know, we have this amazing brain development. And in fact, we know that brains aren't fully developed till 20, 25 26 30 years old. And so that's why it just doesn't work. It's not, you know, kids aren't standardized. Children's brains are not adult brain.

So I, I w I'm very wary about age as a hard number of like, yes versus no. It's a lot more nuanced than that. So to me, it's a lot more about your kid, what you know about your kid, you know, do they do things outside of school? School independently. Do they get their homework done on their own? Do they contribute to the household?

Yes. As a member of the household, like there are so many other skill, I, you know, one of my big things is skills before screens, you know? So that to me is a much more useful question than an age. That being said, we know that it's something like 30% of eight year olds have iPhones now, so the, the numbers have crept down.

As screen use goes up, kids are getting them younger and younger. And to me, that's very worrisome because of the brain development impact that we just don't know. I mean, well, we do know early research is showing that, that it's not good, but it is generally, I mean, I don't know. I guess I just feel like on a logical reasonable level, we don't need the research to say it's just not good for a child to sit in front of a screen for five, six, seven hours a day.

That's just not healthy. It's not what development looks like. So I don't think I answered your question entirely. But no, you did. You did. Okay. Okay. I was really kind of hoping you would say basically you're saying you need to know your kid like you need to know if they are capable of handling this and if they're Okay.

Doing other things in life that show they're a responsible kid, then, you know, have that conversation. And the pressure part of this is really important, too, though, because there's both peer pressure from kids and their friends. I'm the only kid who doesn't have a phone, and there's the parental social pressure of like, well, am I the only parent who's not gonna give what everybody else has?

And it's not the same as when I was a kid and I wanted this special pair of jeans or whatever, you know, the cool thing was that era. But like, you know, because we're talking like little, literally robots in our pocket, it's very different than a piece of clothing. And so I worry, you know, it requires a lot of parental strength to say no and be different than what feels, but I, but I will remind you that 10 years ago, you wouldn't have been different, right?

Like this is such a quickly changing cultural shift. And so I do think the pendulum is swinging. I, you know, I don't know if you're familiar with Jonathan Haidt's new book, The Anxious Generation. That's a great resource for future reading and learning. I quote him in my book. He's an excellent researcher, but, you know, it's, it's getting a ton of press in a good way.

It's pointing out that like, you know, phone based childhoods are deeply affecting adulthood and it's a problem that we need to address. So, you know, the pendulum is swinging in a good direction, I would argue. It also sounds like you're saying that you need to have good communication with your kids and so that, you know, because a kid could very well get a phone and download an app and you'll never know.

And that exactly, but the good communication part is, is key there. Yeah. And, you know, I, I hear this a lot too. And people will say, well, we've, we're not allowing social media till 16. That's great. I'm really glad that you have a clear rule. I hope it's been communicated clearly. It's embedded in your family's values, all of those things.

But also, have you met 16 year olds? Some of them are real sneaky and they have friends who have phones and they're going to find the work around. And some of that's developmentally normal, like to be independent seeking and to rebel a little bit. Like we want some of that healthy, you know, differentiating from us as adults and parents.

So, you know, I, I don't want parents to go into this naively either that just because you have the role doesn't mean it's going to be followed. It doesn't mean that kids aren't accessing things. So, you know, and I think the other question for the parental control one, right? Like to your point about communication, it's that rather than say, so, you know, there's plenty of tools on the market, right?

For parental controls and apps and monitoring software and filters and blocks and all this stuff. It's digital whack a mole is what I always say, right? Because, you know, you, you, you could walk into your class and ask, okay, your parents put on this parental control. What are you going to do to get around it?

They're going to tell you in 30 seconds how they do it because Google. Right? Because YouTube tells you how to do this. And so, you know, I think parents can't go into it naively. I think it can be one tool. I think for very little children and young children, that might be a more effective tool. More important in my mind, and there's research to back this up, is the questions to ask, to your point, is not, What is the parental control?

But do I have a good relationship with my kids? Period. Because it's in the context of that, that you're going to know what they're doing online, which is the second part of that question. It's not the parental control. It's do I have a good relationship with my kid? Do I know what they're doing online?

Because I can tell you how many parents come to me and they are, kids are way savvier than they are about the tech. They are, you know, anytime someone says road blocked to me, I know they don't know what their kid's doing online because it's not road blocks, it's Roblox and it's not one game. It's thousands of games.

Yeah, so that's like an easy tell If a parent isn't sure about that, they have got some conversations to have What is your thoughts on because the most common studies come out and talk about how screen time is difficult for, like body image and media and self esteem the book you recommended, there's, have you ever heard of C.

J. Pascoe, the sociologist? No, but I love sociologists. Sure, her, I don't remember the name of her most recent book, but I'll link it. Yes, please. One of the things, she's been studying high school aged kids for 20 years. And she did bullying back before people were talking about bullying. But she makes this point that yes, there's a self esteem thing, and yes, you can't escape the phone when, you know, like, when I was a kid, you could just not.

Go to school and not answer the phone or go home at the end of the day. But she also says that we've created a culture where picking on people and self esteem and manipulating emotions is somewhat okay. And that the tech amplifies that, but as much as the tech is the problem, we still have a cultural issue that we're dealing with.

So I'm curious what your thoughts are on the whole, on all of that. That's a great question. You know, I, On the one hand, I feel very protective of parents. Like I feel like I tell parents, it's not your fault that this is such a big issue, but it is your responsibility. Yeah. And I am also aware that the tech industry would love to blame parents for this because it's much more effective for them to say, well, this is you as a parent who's failed, not us.

It's not our product. It's you as a parent, much more lucrative for them to say Oh, maybe we should change our business practices. Right. So Yes, I do think there is a Well, you know, I that's a great question. And I was thinking when I was teaching middle school 10 years ago, you know, we did talk a lot about bullying.

And obviously, cyberbullying wasn't really a thing yet. But it was about how you show up and who you are and what kind of person you want to be. And you're right that the temp tech amplifies that. And that's always been the case that kids are kind of not nice to each other in middle school. And, you know, I think it's become more culturally accepted.

I think it's probably what you're you're getting. Your large bj pascoe's point and and I I don't disagree but I also don't think that just It means we should let tech off the hook. Right. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. What are your thoughts on when people say, like do a tech detox or you know, my thing has always been like, I, when I feel like I'm getting too, when I'm taking too much time on like Instagram as I delete it for a weekend.

So I'm curious what your thoughts are on, on, you know, If you recommend a screen detoxing. Oh, hi! The doggie's in here. I'm so sorry. Yes let me close my window. I don't know if she's Don't bark. You're supposed to be quiet during a podcast interview. I apologize. Mine are in the bedroom. I totally get it.

Well, she's either going to bark out there or bark in here. So so what are your, what are your thoughts on screen detoxing and taking time away? I, one of the things I hear a lot from students, the student told me this story. This past semester where her phone died at midnight, like died, like was no longer working and she couldn't sleep until she could get to T Mobile at 9 a.

m. the next day because she was so just wanting to scroll and look at it. And the second T Mobile opened, she was there and getting a new one. So I'm curious what your thoughts are on that stuff. I think that's indication again that like adults or young adults are. We are very prone to compulsive and addictive behavior when it comes to technology use.

And again, that's because of the intentional design features, right? It is designed to hook into our neural pathways. It's the very simple equation is the more time we spend online, the more ads we get exposed to, and the more money the tech company makes. It is literally a very simple equation. The problem is when we're tapping into these neural pathways and they, the tech companies have hired developmental psychologists to manipulate.

Our attention, we are our attention is the, you know, the commodity, they call it the attention economy, right? And that to me is, is deeply disturbing. So I am all for taking breaks and detox and doing whatever you need to do individually. But I also want to make sure I'm really clear that it is not an individual's fault that this is so hard, right?

Like, you know, if you're struggling with this, it's not because of you, you know, it is because of the way in which this has been, you know, Designed and you know, there are definitely things we can do to decrease and minimize our scrolling And I know I think as a parent one of the things I talk to parents all the time about is like you cannot change Your child's screen time until you're willing to look at your own because kids hate hypocrisy.

I mean and they're Doesn't mean the rules have to be identical, but you certainly the modeling piece is incredibly important. So number one is get your phones out of the bedroom at night. Everybody, whether you have kids or not, whether you're 60 or 16, doesn't matter. Get them out of the bedroom. They interfere with sleep.

And, you know, everyone says, well, that's my alarm clock. Alarm clocks are like under 20 on Amazon, you can get it tomorrow, and it works exactly the same way as your phone will, but it doesn't have the internet connected, it doesn't have your email account. So that's the problem is, you know, we have it by our bedside, we, you know, doomscroll before bed, and I always say, Twitter before bed messes with your head, you know, it's like my little adage there.

You know, so that's a big one. The other big one. It's just an easy, quick solution is turn off all your notifications, all of them, including text alerts. In fact, that's my phone will ring, but it will not do any notification sounds for anything other than the phone, including text. You know, what's so sad is that I'm always by a screen or computer.

I never miss anything. So, but the difference is it doesn't interrupt me when I'm in the middle of something, whether that's a conversation with my kid or when I'm on a phone call. So that's another simple one. You can do. Scale, you can make your phone less appealing to look at and that makes you wanna pick it up less.

But again, these are all like great strategies for sort of some. Small changes, but I think the bigger change needs to come from, you know, the cultural side and the technology business and design side. So yes, and is the answer to that. No, I think you're right, because there are steps you can take and you have to be willing to do them.

And the bigger picture is you're, you're, you're. Getting into the media literacy part of this, which is that these companies have designed this stuff so that they can make a ton of money off of it. And that we are in some ways, you know, I always say like the internet is not optional anymore. Like it's, it's, it's not something that you can just opt out of and say, I'm not going to do it.

We use it for everything. So understanding who is pushing what to you through all of your, Stuff is a big part of this. I noticed on Facebook Reels that they're running ads on the bottom of the reel now, and you have to like exit out of it and then 10 seconds later another ad will appear. Yeah. And that, that's in, that's insane.

Like nobody needs to be seeing random ads while you're trying to like watch a dog do something cute. It's, it's insane. Right. And they're in the media literacy piece of that too. When you think about for children, you know, I thought I was doing this great job as a parent teaching my child about marketing, you know, and messaging.

And I remember very distinctly being in a grocery store and she was about four and frozen. The movie was her favorite movie, you know, and there was a cereal box that had characters from the movie on it. And I was like, you know, what does Elsa have to do with Cheerios or whatever? You know, she's like, yeah, that's, that doesn't make sense.

And then she went and she found a box of tea. And she picked it up and she said, what does a dragon have to do with tea? And the dragon was part of the brand design. And I was like, Oh my gosh, you know, like I'm teaching her this and yet there's so much nuance to it. And that to me was a great example again of that brain development piece where I as an adult understand the difference, but why would a four year old get it?

And so that's part of the problem with the stuff that kids are consuming is it's an ad. Or maybe it's not an ad and they don't know the difference. It's all content to consume. And that's problematic too, right? We could, we think about like marketing influence on young children, right? Like that's deeply problematic.

Yeah, pretty much everything has become content like that's I think yeah, one of the big takeaways of social media now Even if you don't want it to be whenever I upload lectures on to YouTube I I unclick all of the like do you want people to comment? Do you want people to like? Do you want people to take this and use it as a reel or a short?

And I unclick all of those things, but you also still have to be very aware that just because I unclicked all those buttons doesn't mean that something I do or say isn't going to be taken and put somewhere where I don't want it like that. Yeah, there's screen grabbing and recording. Yeah, it's, it is not.

And it's a really great point about not being able to opt out of the internet because as a parent and part of the activism work that I do is around screens in the schools right and how much digital tech, especially K 12. I realize higher ed has its own challenges. But it isn't optional. You know, my sixth grader is at a public school and has to carry a laptop back and forth to school.

She's got horrible neck pain because this computer is old and clunky, and I'm, I'm starting to get really frustrated about why this is actually not developmentally good on so many levels. But there isn't an option. If I opt her out of the internet, or if I opt her out of something, she can't participate in the curriculum.

Right. Exactly. Then it's, then I am being forced as a parent, I don't have a choice. It's either get educated, Or, you know, don't be able to participate, like, but at the expense of my child's privacy and data and mental health and physical health and eye health and all the things that I don't think are needed for young children, or I have to either homeschool or find an alternative.

And that's not, you know, first of all, that certain talk about equity issues, we could talk about privilege, we could talk about resources, undermining public education, all of these things that are tied into that. And I just, one of the things that makes me so angry is why are we letting technologists make decisions about education?

Why are we ignoring teachers? Why are we ignoring the professionals? I don't walk into a surgical I don't even know what it's called, the surgery room and tell a surgeon how to perform a surgery, right? I would never do that, but that's what's happening. And so, you know, I really, I worry a lot about that. I think some of the younger teachers coming up to who grew up on a lot of tech have been sold this bill of goods that tech is the future.

Tech is education. That's what we have to do. And, you know, it's not true. It's problematic to have that message. So. Yeah, I know where the message is coming from. It circles back to what you were saying earlier about, you know, realizing the email is now something you have to do as part of your daily life and, and all of the stuff that comes with that.

I mean, for, for teachers, I think, I think It's no matter what K through 12 higher ed, I don't think any, I think everybody looks at the email situation now and is just like, this is too much. Like, I don't know that I should be this accessible all the time when I'm already going into a classroom and giving you everything I've got.

And then the students who are listening to this are probably rolling their eyes at me, but like I'm already doing a lot. And then I'm, you know, I have, you know, 34 emails every morning looking at me and, and I can't imagine what that's like for K through 12 where there's more of a push for parents to be involved.

And then when you add on top of that, I think the guilt that parents feel that like, if you're not, if you're not having some sort of connection with your kid's teacher and asking these questions and sending the emails that you're not doing your job as a parent. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And it's backwards.

I mean, again, what we want is the independence and the skill, skill building that's going to set kids up for future future success. And, you know, on the one hand, it's great that students are communicating directly with you. But I would also ask. Wouldn't you rather just have that as a conversation? I mean, I know a lot of Gen Z millennials might be like, no, but there is value in the face to face.

Like if you aren't having those, you're instead having to go and spend a couple of hours every day writing back because you're sitting in front of a computer, which takes you away from the ability to be present in the classroom. If someone wants to pop by, right? Like, I think we don't think about that trade off.

And you know, the fact that there's AI companies and assistants are being hired to manage email. Yeah, should tell us that this is we're going the wrong direction. This is email has lost its efficacy. Yeah, yeah. Is there anything else that I didn't ask you about that you want to add? Oh my gosh. Well, I think what you had another question I know on the list about students who want to give up their phones, but I feel like they can't and I want it.

This is going to tie into Jonathan Heights work. And again, I highly recommend looking at his research. One of the things he found that there was a study done where they asked people if they would give up their phone or give up Instagram and how much would they have to pay you, you know, to give it up.

And some people are like, I don't know, 50 bucks, 100 bucks, maybe I do it. But actually when they were said, well, what if we got everyone in your class or your, you know, your group to give it up? And then all of those individuals were like, I'd pay you to give it up. I, so to me, that's the message here. It's the collective action that we do it together.

And so whether that's us as young adults in a university program, or it's us as parents trying to, with our kids. To talk to our kids, friends, you know, parents. It's the collective action that is going to change this. It's, you know, and we need the legislation, and we need policy change, and we need to hold big tech accountable.

But it also has to start, like, with our own communities. And so I think that's a very powerful illustration of, can we do this together? Yeah, there's one thing I ask everybody at the end of every episode, and I don't put it on the question list, Uhhuh, because I like to get an organic answer. Love it. So I, the show is, the podcast is called Most Popular, and so I like to ask everyone who or what would you think needs to be voted most popular?

And it can be anything that you can think of. Oh. Like, in, in my current day and age? Anything you want. Like, if there's a person from history that you think is amazing, you could do that. I mean, it could be anything. It can be your kid. It can be your dog. Whatever you want. Okay, well, can I, can I have one comment first?

Because it's super interesting you say popular. Because when I taught middle school, especially seventh grade, boy, was that popular. All the thing, right? Am I popular? But what I learned and what I and this is based on the work of Roblin Wiseman. And there's other other people as well. But like, there's actually two kinds of popular, there's the popular that is like, I'm socially powerful.

And people either sort of fear me or obey me or follow me. And then there's the popular, like, well liked, like admired, like, You know, this is a popular brand. Everybody likes it kind of a thing. And so I've talked to my own kids about this, right? Like, what does it mean? And which one do you want to be, you know, and how, how do you set yourself up for that?

So it's funny you say that because my first thought was actually my, my children, you know, that like, they're my, They're, you know, they're my guiding stars in a lot of ways, the reason I do the work I do. So that's so sweet. I think we can also toss Rosalind Wiseman in there. For anyone who doesn't know, she's the one that wrote the book that Mean Girls is based on.

Her book is Queen Bees and Wannabes. So yes, she's a great example of that. Exactly. Yeah. And, and, and for her to have coined that and developed that nuanced definitions of it. I, I love that. So. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for doing this with me. I really appreciate it. You're welcome. Thank you for having me.

And thank you to your students for listening. And I'm always interested to hear what young people are experiencing too. So please encourage them to reach out if they have questions. Thank you so much for listening. You can find more episodes of Most Popular on iTunes, Spotify, YouTube, and wherever you get your podcasts.

Please take the time to follow, rate, and review. And if you are so inclined, and you are not one of my current students, a Patreon for Most Popular is set up and linked in the show notes. More information, including additional resources for educators, can be found on my website, adriantreer beanik. com, and that is spelled out in the show notes.

So that you don't have to figure out how to spell all my names. I am also on Instagram at at Dr. period Adrienne TB. Thanks as always to my students for the encouragement to keep making these episodes and I will see you next time. Bye!