Hello, and welcome to Most Popular, the podcast about pop culture and the impact it has on society. I'm Dr. Adrienne Trier Benick, I'm a professor of sociology, and I will be your host. Before I get started, I just wanted to say a quick thank you to everyone who has sent nice notes about the relaunch of the podcast.

This is truly one of my favorite things to do, and it's been kind of an unexpected moment of joy for me. I did not expect that this would be as received, this would be as well received as it's been with my students and with so many people. that are listening. So thank you for the kind words. I really, really appreciate it.

This is one of my favorite creative outlets. So just having a note here and there saying, I really like what you're doing means a lot. [00:01:00] So thank you. Today's guest is Deanna Fearman. Deanna is a mental health therapist at All the Colors Counseling and Consulting. A few months ago, Deanna approached me about doing an episode about polyamory and I, I have to admit, I was one of the folks who fell down a real rabbit hole after Jada Pinkett Smith's book came out, and she was doing a media tour about her non monogamous relationship with Will Smith.

Now, I'm a Gen X child of the 80s, and I am a sworn defender of the song, Summertime, as one of the greatest pieces of music ever made. I realize that's loaded. As well as my, my party trick is that I can wrap the entire theme song to Fresh Prince of Bel Air. So I felt like it was my duty, nay, my obligation, to my fellow Gen X people to perk up whenever Will Smith's name is mentioned, and a lordy.

Did my ears do a double take at this news? As you will hear, I know very little about polyamory and non monogamy, which [00:02:00] honestly is why I love doing these podcasts. I think keeping an open mind and being curious about other people's lives is, it's like one of the secret sauces to being a better human.

Deanna and I talk about what being polyamorous is, how she counsels people who are looking to head down this path, and what the biggest misconceptions about non monogamy are. I really hope you learned as much as I did, and as always, if you liked the conversation, please take time to rate and review on your favorite platform, and if you're so inclined to support this work, please consider joining my Patreon community, and as always, Any students listening are banned from joining Patreon.

Your beautiful faces with my show and your earbuds is truly payment enough for me. Here's my conversation with Deanna Fierman. All right. Hello everybody. I'm Deanna Fierman. I'm a psychotherapist located in Colorado, licensed professional counselor. I have worked in lots of different settings. I've worked in universities and community mental health ERs, schools, crisis centers.

So I've kind of. Done a lot. And then I've been in a group practice for a while [00:03:00] in private practice and combined that's been about five, six years at this point. My focus these days is, and actually has been for a while, is on working with clients, largely in the LGBTQ plus community. But also specifically with people who are in, and I'm going to throw this terminology in here, either open relationships.

Consensual non monogamy, ethical non monogamy, polyamory, they're all different flavors, which I can get into and helping clients figure out what they're looking for and how to go about exploring this in an ethical and in a consensual way. How did you get to this? I think that's a really important thing.

Like, what was your journey to get to this field? Well, I can give you the, to the field specifically or to the polyamory piece. Both. I mean, what made you want to go into therapy and then what made you want to kind of branch out and do this work? I think that this will actually be a fun answer for, for your students, especially, which is that I started off in research.

I was in psych research and working on my PhD [00:04:00] and I learned a lot. I finished my master's was, you know, start my dissertation and I was sitting in a room one day and I. I was having people press a button and to do some tasks and I realized I don't want to spend my life and my entire career sitting in here having people press buttons and writing applications for grants.

And it, I enjoyed it, but it wasn't social enough for me at the time. And so I kind of did a deep. Look inside myself and decided to change careers altogether and went into the counseling side rather than the research side of psychology. And so far, I mean, it's been, it's all careers I think are bumpy to some degree, but I've really enjoyed a lot of the work that I've gotten a chance to do.

So that's that professional piece with that. And then personally, about a couple of decades ago, I had a partner I had a bad breakup and I said, you know what, I just, I can't. I can't date someone and have you as my partner. And this person very wisely said, [00:05:00] Hey, have you read this book called the ethical slut?

And that's my first introduction to, to all of this. And, you know, I mean, it's a tiny bit dated now, given the decades that have gone by, but it was a really great introduction to what is this, how do you have relationships that are not exclusive, but. That you can create them for in a way that feels right for you in the way that works.

And since that time, a couple decades ago I've been practicing in all sorts of different various forms personally and professionally. I've been writing about it when I was in counseling grad school publishing on it, talking to classes. But it's something that. I've really appreciated the fact that we're, we're told the story about what relationships should look like.

And this is similar, I think, in terms of gender, in terms of sexuality, and this is, there, there are two genders. There are just, you know, you are either gay or you are lesbian, for example, as opposed, or you are straight. That's not able to have multiple attractions or multiple [00:06:00] identities. And so this is kind of a similar story around deconstructing this.

What, what's the story we've been told about relationships? And why have we been told it? And what is it, how can we be happier? Not, by the way, I want to be really clear here also, it's not about saying this is the better way to do things. Because I don't think open relationships are the right choice for, for everybody at all.

When I tell, work with my clients, I oftentimes talk to them about it's what's the right choice for you. And so sometimes I work with people who think, look about at open relationships and decide to say, nope, monogamy is the right choice for us. And I think that's awesome. What I really want people to do is to check in with themselves of what they are looking for.

So, you know, maybe somebody says, you know, I think I mostly want monogamy, but I want to have this sort of. Close friend where we have flirtation, and that's okay. Or it can be, I want to have multiple partners who [00:07:00] are all involved with one another, or I want to have, be dating multiple people who are not at all aware of each other, and as long as they're consenting to being in this relationship structure, consent again is.

Key piece here. Or I want relationship anarchy, which is doing what I want and, you know, being communicative, but ultimately I will act the way I want to act. And so there's a full spectrum here. And it's, it's not about, it's not about right or wrong so much as what's right or wrong for you at any given time.

And that I think is a key piece of this. Can I go back? I really want to ask you about relationship anarchy, but can I go back for just a 2nd? Because I think 1 of the things you said earlier would be really interesting, especially for people who are trying to decide what field they want to go into.

So, I'm a person that changed my major, like, 4 times in a span of. Four years. Yep. And luckily they were all in the same wheelhouse. So, you know, credits and all that, but I [00:08:00] get the piece where you said I, I went into this thinking I was going to do research and then I said, Nope, this is the other lane that I need to move into.

And I'm wondering what. Went into that in terms of your thought process, like, did was it your gut saying this isn't working for me? Was it, you know, that was there like financial reason? Not like, you know, in terms of like, please share your finances with me. But because I think a lot of folks go into psychology research thinking I'm going to be this amazing researcher and I'm going to.

Figure out how to get the rat to eat the cheese every time and that's going to prove amazing theory and the reality of it is very, very different. It is what you say. You're, you're literally sitting in a room with a list of questions that people answer or don't. And there's a whole lot of stuff that goes along with that.

It's also kind of a, I think, a emotionally laborious thing to be doing to be in that type of position. So I'm curious what, what, like, what made your mind go? Nope. Okay. Gotta gotta change [00:09:00] gears on that. That's a great question. It's a complex question and I'll, I'll try to sum it up. I think I honestly had some internalized, I don't know what the term would be with this, but you know, I was interested in the research at first just 'cause it caught my mind.

I saw, you know, I was taking cognitive psychology specifically, so language and memory and psycholinguistics, and that was my, my focus. And I loved learning about it, but also people were very heavily focused on intellect. Mm. Nuts. I don't think it's bad. But there wasn't room for a broader sense of self in a lot of academic spaces that I was in.

And actually, it's one of the reasons I also love working with people who are in academia, like, like students or professors or who are in this environment, which is so the value is around what you can produce and achieve, as opposed to Okay, there's that, but there's also humanity and, you know, maybe you're dealing with depression so you can't produce in the same way or [00:10:00] anxiety and presenting in front of a class is really hard or whatever it is.

And so it's, it's, it's having space for both of those. Yeah, I think that was really what, what called to me and, and I've been, I've been disparaging Touchy feely stuff for a while and I realized that was internalized from all the messaging I was getting from academia. So really throwing upending that basically throwing it up and saying I'm not going to do this anymore.

It was a big leaf of faith on my part. Yeah, and luckily I was privileged enough to be able to Get into this program and be able to afford to go to this master's program And it was one where there's a lot of focus on diversity and multiculturalism. And I had had a background in that already from my undergrad institution.

And so kind of led right into it. And at the time I was also working as an academic advisor in university. And so there's also that I was very comfortable talking with people already in about stuff that might come up. Cause with advising, of course, there's. Emotion, people have lives that happen as well, so there's a lot of emotion that would show up.

[00:11:00] So all of that, you know, I headed into counseling and I will say that for a psychotherapist, it's a, it's not a very lucrative profession. There is not, at least not at first, there's a lot of unpaid labor, unpaid internships, even in graduate school to be able to, you start off in jobs, which Oftentimes high risk clients, a lot of stress, too high caseloads.

So you kind of get thrown into the deep end and, you know, I've been thinking about my time in community mental health specifically, which was, I learned so much and also I think they have the people right out of school who are already struggling and I think they would do a lot better to have. Seasoned people in the higher risk populations.

So that's kind of a tangent of my own here. So anyway, I, I decided I was getting a little burnt out. So, which is why I went into group practice and then solo practice. No, it makes perfect sense. One of the things I feel pretty strongly about is that academia should not be. [00:12:00] The book and the intellect, I feel like whatever you're doing should be able to be applied to people's lives.

That's kind of why I did this podcast. It's why I consider myself a public scholar. So I do stuff outside of my little bubble. I have a friend who works in tech and we talk about this a lot. His PhD is some fancy way of saying antennas. So I just gave the PhD antennas, but he's trying to build antennas that will help people in rural communities get Internet access.

Right? So, like, that's a public scholarship in my mind. He, we disagree on the term, but whatever. So I, I think that I think what you're articulating is what I wish a lot of folks would do is say, yes, it's great that you can do the push the button, but it would be nice if, you know, this, you could show how this is going off into the world.

So, anyway, that said, we're here to talk about polyamory. Yeah. So I loved that when you suggested this, you said, let's talk about it in terms of Will and Jada Pinkett Smith, [00:13:00] which is, is a never ending, apparently well of, of information with their marriage. I think you can tell pretty much everything that's going on at this point.

So can you talk about what polyamory is, what it means and then maybe contrast that with what people think it is. Absolutely. Okay. And this is one of those, I don't like defining something in the negative because it's, it's the anti, like not monogamy, then not normal, whatever the, so I don't always like that.

And in this case, I'm going to do that just because I think it's, it's content wise. It makes sense because we think we know what monogamy is. We think, you know, it's, To people who are not sexually or romantically engaged with people outside of that relationship. I'm making that up on the fly, but I think most people would, would agree that's a pretty standard definition.

And yet, and that's what we see in movies, it's what we see portrayed [00:14:00] everywhere.

And I think There are subtleties though. I'm, I gave a talk on this at one point and I said, you know, imagine you see, you see somebody and you go up and give them a hug. Is that okay? And some people might say, yeah, no. How about a kiss on the cheek? Maybe how about a kiss on the lips? Well, maybe how about you start making out?

And there's at some point and, and people, there's a slippery slope of people don't always agree on what, what is okay and what isn't okay, but they don't talk about it. And the lack of discussion I think is, is a big, okay. It doesn't have to be a problem, but that's where jealousy comes up. It comes, it's where all these assumptions are made around this.

And I guess my goal is to get people to start talking about what are we assuming about one another in terms of, and again, I, I, let me kind of get into the terminology here just for a second. So. I was just in a group earlier today, which we were talking about the differences in this. So to be very clear, these are [00:15:00] my interpretations of this terminology.

You might get different explorations and assumptions based on different people. I personally use the term open relationships, which is this overarching umbrella. Because it means it's a relationship that's not monogamous, but it could mean a sexually non monogamous relationship. It could be in a romantically when it could be a, I'm doing whatever I want.

It could mean we're married and we're swinging together. It could mean closed. Triangle of people. It could mean many things. So open is in contrast to monogamy. There's polyamory and that, that's the common one that we hear a lot. And that's when specifically focused on, on romance. So emotional so amore, right?

Love separate, but you could be polyamorous, perhaps be romantically involved with somebody else, but not sexually involved with them. So I would say that's part of polyamory. Similarly, you could have a partner where you're, it's tricky to say we're just going to be emotionally involved with each [00:16:00] other and sexually not because emotions tend to do what they want.

But, you know, you could say we're just going to go sleep with other people and then try to be romantically monogamous with one another. So there's that as well. The terms consensual and ethical consensual non monogamy and ethical non monogamy. And I've been digging into these, this terminology in the last handful of weeks myself.

The key piece of, of whatever this is that we're talking about, the opposite of monogamy, is consensuality. So if, if people are not able to say, okay, I'm going to do this and you're going to do this and I agree, we agree to it. That's, that's cheating. I think it's not ethical. It's not consensual. It is, that's a whole different category.

Step one is understanding what you're agreeing to and agreeing to it because you don't talk about it. You can't agree to it. Then it's the same, I mean, same issue of consent in, in any other circumstance. So it'd be really clear. And especially to your students, I want to say, this is. You don't just go sleep with whoever [00:17:00] you want and call that consensual nominogamy because it's not consensual.

That's majorly problematic in my opinion. Ethical, you get into the question of whose system of ethics? But also it's not, some can give consent without necessarily, they might be feeling manipulated or they may not be giving grudging consent or may not be enthusiastic consent, of course, whatever that enthusiastic consent means.

So I won't go too far down that rabbit hole, but people say C& M and E& M, and those are kind of the acronyms for both of those. I'll probably use the phrase polyamory and romantic open relationships as our, through our discussion today. So the idea though is there's there's so many different ways of doing this.

There's no right way, there's no wrong way, but to be able to be in multiple relationships The people need to know what they're getting into and agree to it with knowledge of it. I mean, you may not know what it's going to look like, you don't know who you're going to fall for or who you want to date, [00:18:00] but saying I understand that you might be going and dating somebody else.

I understand and consent to the fact that you might be going and sleeping with somebody else. I'm talking about safer sex practices, for example, if you get to that piece. So, did I answer your question? Yeah. Okay. No, it's a good start. So I, well, no, I don't, I want you to explain it because I have a very limited understanding of this.

So when someone comes to you and when, when a couple or group of folks or however it works come, and if any of this is offensive, please tell me right away because I. I want to make sure the language is right. If people come to you and they say we want to have a polyamor, polyamorous relationship and they, you know, want to talk about it in a session.

What does it look like to guide them into that discussion? Right? Good question. And by the way, with. I actually love that you said you don't want to use the wrong terminology, because I hear that a lot from people as well. And I'm a big fan of, you don't know until you know, and we're going to [00:19:00] make mistakes because we're human.

And actually with open relationships, one of the things I say is you're not going to going to know what's going to hurt your partner until you're going to, you know, you try to communicate something and then this person ends up having a crush and they didn't expect to have a crush. And then you're feeling rejected because you know, there's going to be times when we're going to step on each other's toes, especially in this Context because there's no script.

There's no, this is how I think about the Hallmark movies of like, you know, this is, this is what happens. And so mistakes are going to happen and misunderstandings and part of a key piece of this is all is repair. So how do you repair and get the skills and therapy, for example, to figure that piece out?

The guiding piece is interesting, and I do do it differently when it's with an individual versus with a couple or I use the term polycule, which is, three or more people. So with an individual, let's say, and they're not in any relationships at the moment, a lot of we talk about is what they're looking for.

So how do you know you might? Be interested in, in non-monogamy, [00:20:00] what are you interested in having? Lots of sexual partners. Are you interested in having deep emotional relationships? Both. Do you, would you ideally like it for, there's hierarchy as a big, it's a big hot topic in the world, so, you know, are these, do you want a primary partner?

That's one of the, the terms that people using Then a secondary partner, or do you want what's called kitchen table polyamory and people just sitting around and being in relationship as almost as a family together. What are the needs? Well, do you, do you need to know where your partner is? Okay. That that's not necessarily a bad need.

The question is what's, what's the reasoning behind it? You know, how do you adapt that to open relationships? If your partner goes on a date and they don't tell you like, how will you handle that? Do you have the skills to be able to handle something like that? So with individual, it's a lot more kind of self reflection about what do you want and how to communicate it and your needs.

If it's a couple, there's, or, or two or more people, I should [00:21:00] say there's some more complicated questions because. There are people who, I'll say people who've been in open relationships for years and are dealing with something, an issue non related, hey, I'm frustrated that I don't have enough time or something like that.

And so we may not even talk about non monogamy, like, or we may talk about it in passing, but it's more about the, how do you talk about love and affection and creating needs or creating space for the needs to be met. But I think what you're asking also, so somebody comes to me and says, okay, we want to open our relationship.

One thing I check for is what, what. What are things looking like already? Are they opening it up because there's We're not sure it's working, and so we're just going to try to get our needs met by other people. At which point, that for me, that's a bit of a red flag. It's not, not to say you shouldn't be able to have needs met by other people, but let's also figure out what's going on with the two of you.

Let's stand, that for me, that's kind of standard couples counseling of what needs aren't being met, what emotional, how are emotions being expressed, what's [00:22:00] the cycle that's happening between the two of you. Mm hmm. So a lot of times actually I, I start off with people just, it's standard couples counseling for me.

It's, it's really, and I use something called emotionally focused therapy the water What are we looking for? And yes, it's okay to date. Yes, it's okay. But, but it's less about the structure of it. When you can feel secure as a, as a, either a dyad or a triad or something like that, then you can figure out how to open things up further.

If people have already done that work and they're like, we're, we're great together. We, we feel comfortable. We can communicate well. We and we want this level of excitement. Then it's oftentimes turns to almost. Nuts and bolts. Like, what are the pieces that you need to know about? Do you, do you care if, you know, if your partner's on a date?

Do you, how, what does safer sex look like to each of you? What will happen in this situation? Oftentimes, I actually have [00:23:00] a technique I use a lot, which is let's say if someone's on a date and another person's feeling insecure the words tend to get in the way because People want to write long texts or have phone conversations and, and that takes up time and there's resentment that builds in the middle of the date.

And so in couples counseling, what I oftentimes do is have them say something and then pick an emoji, which represents all that, that emotion, that love, that affection. And then when they're on the date, send the emoji or the The picture or the whatever to one another. And so it's, it's, it's the, I love you message without all the words that tend to draw attention and draw, you know, you said this the wrong way you, you didn't use the pet name that I like.

And then it just, it just builds upon itself. So the idea is. ultimately being secure in whatever relationships are there and appreciating other relationships as you build upon them. Easier said than done. No, that was, that was [00:24:00] so helpful. I'm glad you said, because one of my questions was going to be how, how do you navigate it when it's clearly I don't want a polyamorous relationship.

I want to break up with this person and I don't know how to say our relationship is over. So instead, I'm saying, hey, maybe we just see other people in this. Totally. You know, so I'm glad that you, you kind of found a way to gauge for where folks are at in terms of that I also think that question to you might be as annoying as it is to me when people say, why didn't you include X, Y, and Z in your research?

Okay. And you're like, well, it didn't fit. So, you know, I'll also add one more thing, if I may different therapists, couples, therapists do this differently, but I was trained that. You can take each individual partner and see them for an individual intake, which for those people who aren't aware, it's that's the initial meeting between the therapist and the client.

And some people, especially for couples therapists, they want to see, [00:25:00] oh, it's always about the couple together. But for me, it helps me get a sense of what each person is looking for. Like, really, what are they, are they going to be on board? Is this going to be effective? For, are there any safety issues that are at play?

Are there any? And so I can keep those in the back of my head. I do have a policy where I say no, no secrets. If there's anything major, don't, don't bring it up. Cause you don't want me to bring it up. You don't, if you don't want me to tell the other person something, I'm not going to be thinking about that in the middle of a session.

Right. Right. I'm not going to be trying to figure that out. But for the most part, if it's a, well, you know, I, I'm actually hesitant about this, but even though this other person is excited about it, that might tell me, you know, Maybe we need to focus a little more on that piece or on hesitancies or meeting needs or before we start on how do we open the relationship and practice.

With that said, what, what are misconceptions about about being polyamorous? What have you heard? I've heard a lot. Actually, one of the pieces I published, I did some [00:26:00] research around some of this, and there are two, there are two pieces I want to get to with this, because one is I want to talk about from the Perspective of the people who, who are non monogamous in some way, there's a fear of coming out.

It's not a protected class in terms of there's fear of discrimination. There's fear of, I mean, intake forms oftentimes lists to parents, for example, or to couple pieces of people who are in a couple there's a relationship status, you know, married, widowed, divorced. What, what if you have a partner in a.

Another partner, how do you specify that? I use open ended questions personally because I feel like there's space for people to explicitly say what things look like for them. There's, so there's, you know, discrimination in terms of who you can get married to, of course. Marriage for me is, isn't one of the key pieces so much as, like, when you get to that point, there's already a pretty clear structure in place of we, hey, we want to be committed to one another.

I think that's an important piece, but not necessary for the purposes of today's [00:27:00] discussion. And I'm looking down because I've got some notes here. Oh, so some of the misconceptions that people are promiscuous and, and promiscuous with the negative connotation. I mean, having a lot of sex, I don't.

At least for me, I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to have a lot of sex, but the idea of doing it in a cruel way, like I'm gonna, I'm gonna do this and leave you emotionally hanging or not be responsible that you're uncaring about your partners. I mean, if people decide to have a one night stand and everybody's consenting about it, great.

If one person wants more, one person wants something else, then, then you've got that. I don't think it's consensual necessarily anymore. It may not be ethical at that point. That you're insecurely attached, you're, you're sleeping with a lot of people because, or you're dating a lot of people because there's, psychologically there's something wrong with you.

And I mean, I think for many of us in general, there's some attachment stuff going on, but I, I don't, I don't think that has anything to do with whether you're monogamous or not, because jealousy and insecurity comes up in monogamous relationships all the time [00:28:00] as well. That someone's developed, deliberately rebelling and trying to fight against the norm.

I mean, it might be, but. Sometimes you just love multiple people and, and an example that I really like is, it's more complicated than this, but a parent has enough love to give to more than one kid, even if there's not enough time or energy or resources. We have multiple friends. We have enough love and time and energy, or love for each friend, even if we don't have the time and energy to spend with each friend.

It's a construct to say that we don't have that. In terms of romantic relationships, you may not have time or energy, but to say it's only possible to love one person, the question is why? Why do you say that? And for you, it may be true, but why can't it be different for somebody else, even if that's what your truth is?

Or does sexual attraction to one other person diminish the fact that somebody's sexually attracted to you?

It's just, it gets complicated. There are a lot of [00:29:00] misconceptions out there. Again, to be, I keep coming back to the fact that there's no right or wrong way in terms of You know, I'm thinking back in the day when there was a fear that people would try to turn everyone gay when we were talking about gay and lesbian, or hey, I'm transgender, therefore you must be trans.

It's the same thing. It's not about you, it's about me. It's about what I want. And then in my relationships, how do we construct that? I do work with a number of monopoly couples, by the way. So one person is monogamous and the other person is, is Once the date and that can be tense sometimes but it's certainly possible because there's something myth of equality, the idea that what is equal is equitable.

It has to be the same to be fair, as opposed to maybe I want to hear about your sexual escapades and you don't want to hear about mine, but. Is that a problem? If everybody [00:30:00] is consenting to it, and everybody agrees to it, it's not necessarily a problem. Of course, we assume that we have to be equal for it to be.

I love that you bring it back to someone saying, well, everyone must be gay. If, you know, there's this thing I think about whenever I hear someone say that. It's an old quote from Will and Grace. And I don't remember the context, but I remember Jack looking at someone and saying, newsflash, you can't catch it.

I think about that a lot. Yeah, like it's not that simple. So I guess Will and Grace is a good transition. So this is, this is interesting because we're seeing this happen in celebrity circles, right? Where we talked about the Smiths and, and people saying, well, you know, we're not together, but we're together or we're dating other people or, you know, any of that.

What do you, why do you think? Our culture gets so interested in, in the lives of celebrities, especially when they start talking about polyamorous, non monogamous [00:31:00] relationships. Yeah. I think you'd be able to speak better than I could about why we're interested in celebrities in general. Think. Well, okay.

I'm actually going to take a stab at that after all, which is I mean, I got into counseling in part also because I like the stories. I like learning about other people's lives, complexities. It makes me feel less alone. It makes me feel like I can help in some way sometimes, hopefully. And so for me, I get exposed to this through my work and I don't follow celebrities that closely, but I think for a lot of us, there's a story that we can relate to.

Oh, this is, it's not just me. Oh, they're having a bad breakup too. They're upset about this as well. So we feel less alone in a lot of ways. That's my hunch. In terms of open relationships specifically, why would people be curious? I mean, back in the day when someone was gay and, Oh, they're gay. And there was all this whispering about it.

It's because it's novel because we don't have any stories. We don't have any role models around this. And why would the Silbers want to come out? Well, [00:32:00] I mean, who knows? There are plenty of reasons, but one of them is, why was, does anyone I want to come out as gay or as whatever? They want to be authentic, would be my argument.

I want to show up the way they are in the world. They don't want to have to go to the Oscars with only one partner, as opposed to, why can't they go with both partners? I mean, there's also a bit of showing off, but that's, we all want attention. I just think celebrities tend to get more of it than the average person.

Mm hmm. So, yeah, go ahead. No, no, I, I was just I think you're right. And I think that, I don't know that this would ever happen, but I think that when you start to have an influx of films that cover something like this, then you would see a different public conversation about it. Like how we started to see more and more films that talked about HIV AIDS or LGBTQ or even just things like interracial relationships, which seems so bananas now that that would have been considered.

So taboo to have, you know, [00:33:00] like the Star Trek days where, where Captain Kirk kissed Ohara, like, oh, goodness, it's just a tragic, just a shocking situation. But the more that's normalized, the more we're less inclined to, you know, care when we see it happening. I like that idea of being normalized. I think that's, it's a good word in this context.

Honestly, I would love to see, you know how like, there are now TV shows and movies where there's a gay character and the fact that they're gay isn't the focus of the story, it's just, I, like, I would love to see Hallmark movie where somebody is dating one person, but they're feeling insecure about this other relationship.

And that's normal. That's not the, that's not a, it's not the fact that they have two partners. It's the fact that this one partner and whatever the, the course of the story is, I you know, there's, there are some TV shows out there, at least there were a number of years ago where it was, oh, this. were reality tv shows where this person is dating two people and it [00:34:00] wasn't i don't think they were done responsibly they were done in a sensational way yeah which of course that's what gets viewers so i can't blame the media for wanting to put that out there but again it's similarly you have clients or you have you have people characters who are gay where that's not the main focus and i feel like eventually i would love for it to get to instead of oh they're involved with multiple people it's just that's that's who they are And next, what's the key?

But what's the key point of the story around it? Yeah I was thinking about Schitt's Creek as you were talking about that, because they made one of the characters on that show before he married his husband. It sounds like Polly Emery was his, his thing, like, they don't say it outright. And I think maybe what we're both getting at is that that's the difference, but there is this sort of nod toward it as part of the character's background.

Anyway. Thank you. Yeah, I haven't seen Schitt's Creek, but also I appreciate the recommendation because I'm always [00:35:00] 100 percent watch it. It's amazing. I think I saw like the first episode at one point, but yeah, I will, I will go back. Yeah. The first season is kind of touch and go, but once you get past the first, it's, it's very, very good.

It's, it's cool because they've created a town that an area that is just accepting of all folks, and you can walk in, you know, in being whoever you want, doing whatever you want, and the town doesn't even flinch. They just go, Oh, okay, that's who you are. Like, that's the universe they created with that show.

And it's. It's really nice to watch that there's not a big coming out episode. There's not a big moment of, Oh my God, you're gay. I never realized like none of that happens. It's just, Oh, this is who this person is. Cool. Carry on with what you're doing. I wish I saw more of that. Yeah. It's a kind of a utopia in some senses, but I think it's not an unachievable one, you know?

Yeah. So one thing I like to ask everybody. Because this, this is called most popular is if there is [00:36:00] something, so who or what do you think should be voted most popular? And this can be anything. This can be like I said, media. This can be like your favorite coffee. This can be a person you really enjoy or someone you really admire.

It can be anything. But does anything come to mind for you? Absolutely. Yeah. Okay. Well, I'll there, I have a few things I feel strongly about, but I'll use. The one that I think perhaps a lot of people can relate to. Mr. Rogers. Oh, I. And I, I remember myself back in my twenties and I was unemployed and not knowing where my career was going.

And, and I remember him looking through the TV and saying, I like you just the way you are. And there was a moment where I went, Oh, really? Really? Even though I don't have a job and I don't know it. But, so I've got a, one of my clients, she likens herself to Jim Henson and I liken myself to, I try to be like Mr.

Rogers, I do my best perhaps a [00:37:00] more cynical version of him. But I, I think There's something so scary about somebody seeing us and saying they like us and accept us, and it's threatening. And I think for, actually for a number of my clients, I, I don't recommend him because it's too vulnerable. It's too, but I think for the way he talks to young kids and for those of us who can handle it, of somebody talking about feelings directly, and that it's human to have complex.

Emotions and thoughts and to feel different ways at the same time. And I, I have so much respect for that. I, I wouldn't have said that as a kid, actually, I found it boring to be honest. But as an adult, the message of, okay, you're you and you can mess up and you can have feelings. And it just, it's one that we still, we don't get.

We, we, we're, there's this judgment, and I think perhaps it's a lack of judgment. Or, hey, I think this is important, but leaving it [00:38:00] up to, to the viewer to decide for themselves what's important. That's, that's my bias around it, but I really like Mr. Rogers. And also when you come home, put on your comfy clothes.

Oh, my gosh. The second you go through the door, just put on your comfy stuff. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I know my kids put on their pajamas and I put on my pajamas at the same time because why not? Yes, why not? Thank you so much for doing this for me. I really appreciate it. It's my pleasure. I, thanks so much for having me.

I, I enjoy talking about this. I enjoy. Educating, and I say educating not in a preachy sort of way, it's more of a really challenge your assumptions, challenge the, the boundaries, the stories you've been told and how do you deconstruct them in whatever sense. And you know, today you and I've been talking about polyamory and open relationships, but this can be.

what's the story around why I need a degree? What's the story behind why I should do this career or why I'm in this [00:39:00] field or why I'm in this relationship? Like it's, it's, for me, it's all about breaking down the things we've been told. And then there's nothing wrong with going back and saying, I think that does fit for me.

I think that's great. Knowing why you're doing it as opposed to just doing it without. Without analyzing the reasons for your actions in the first place. Once again, I'd like to thank Deanna Fearman for being my guest. Thank you for listening. You can find more episodes of Most Popular on iTunes, Spotify, YouTube, and wherever you get your podcasts.

Please take the time to follow, rate, and review. And if you are so inclined, and again, you are not one of my current students. A Patreon for most popular is set up and linked in the show notes. More information, including additional resources for educators, can be found on my website, which is also linked in show notes, and I am on Instagram at doctor.

adriennetb. Thanks again for listening, and an extra special thank you, as always, to my students for the encouragement to keep making these. I'll see you next time. Bye![00:40:00]

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