Welcome to Most Popular, the podcast about pop culture and the impact it has on society. I'm Dr. Adrienne Trier Bieniek, I'm a professor of sociology, and I will be your host. So a few months ago, Instagram showed me a targeted account that was based off of the algorithm that we all know. I guess love.

Here's a sneak peek into what I personally enjoy seeing in my feed. Baby animals, preferably farm animals, dogs doing hilarious things, panda bears. I mean, obviously, who doesn't love? A panda bear, especially in the snow when they're sledding. Women doing stand up comedy and people calling out diet culture.

I follow a number of people who do this. Probably the most well known two are the Australian comedian Celeste [00:01:00] Barber. If you don't follow her, you need to do yourself a favor and look her up. She is hilarious. I also follow Jameela Jamil, who a lot of you have heard about from The Good Place. But in between famous people, I follow a lot of influencers who spend their social media time really dismantling ideas about what healthy bodies look like and challenging the misinformation that people who have no business sharing that information on the internet seem to just can't stop, won't stop.

This is probably why people like Michael Ujoa found his way into my feed. Michael is an online personal trainer and a nutritionist based in Edinburgh, Scotland. As a side note, you'll hear me say this a few times. I am consistently and constantly talking about how much I love Edinburgh and how much I love Scotland and how it is my plan to retire either there or Victoria in British Columbia.

So I suspect my phone was listening to me. Talk about this all the time and shared that info in what I only assume is robot code with [00:02:00] Instagram and ta da, Michael. Anyway, Michael has a background in occupational therapy and spends his days doing personal training. He also creates content aimed at calling out the noise generated around fitness influencers.

I'm going to link to his social media in the show notes so you can check him out. He makes wonderful, informative, and also really, really Funny Instagram posts about the fitness industry. This conversation really resonated with me and not just because we talk about health in sociology classes, it's also a conversation about understanding what media we let into our eyeballs and how quickly media can influence us.

Which, if you're in my classes, you know, we talk about a lot. Here's my conversation with Michael. I hope you enjoy it. I think I already mentioned in my email too that Edinburgh is one of my favorite places. Like, that I've ever been to, so I am, I was going to say I'm biased, but I'm not really because I'm not from here.

I, I only, I moved here for, it was supposed to be 12 months and that was 10 years ago now. Yeah. I just loved it so [00:03:00] much. I just didn't ever want to leave. So here I am. I don't blame you. It's Scotland to me is probably the place. Like if I was going to retire, I'm thinking like Victoria, British Columbia or Scotland, beautiful there.

Anyway, we're so lucky. Thank you for doing this. If you want, can you just take a couple of minutes to introduce yourself and then we'll move into the questions. Yeah, absolutely. So my name is Michael Ujoa. I'm a online personal trainer and performance nutritionist. So I run an online personal training company.

I work with clients in kind of an exercise and nutrition capacity. And I've worked with clients in, I think around 20 different countries now. I spend kind of half my time supporting clients with a multiple kind of range of fitness goals. But then I also spend the rest of my time creating kind of silly educational content on social media kind of breaking down barriers around fitness and busting myths.

And yeah, anything I can do to make the fitness industry a little bit more of a kind of welcoming and friendly place, because a lot of time it isn't, it's all very kind of Jim [00:04:00] bro. all about how our bodies are looking or how they're supposed to look and my goal is always to kind of shift the narrative away from kind of kind of what's the way to describe it?

Just kind of all being about image, you know, I don't think it should be. It can be if you, if you have some goals that are maybe aesthetic or whatever, I'm not judging people for that, but. I always felt like that should be a bit of a byproduct and my goal is to kind of recenter things and have people focusing on the health behaviors that truly matter.

So that's, that's me. I yeah, I said, I've been running a personal training business now for about eight to nine years. I was an occupational therapist before this. So I worked in healthcare for around three years before thinking, this isn't what I want to do for the rest of my life. Let's find something that would be fun to do for a while whilst I figure out what I want to be when I'm older.

And, and yeah, now kind of nine, 10 years later, I'm, I'm still personal training and I truly believe I've got the best job in the world. I absolutely love it. And you do so we call them like Ironman things [00:05:00] here, and I know that there's a similar situation in Europe, but you do like the, the, the serious business.

Yeah. Triathlons are fun. I, the reason I got into those was I, it maybe shows a bit of a window into how my brain works, but I really wanted to learn how to properly swim. I could kind of. badly do a breaststroke. And I thought, right, how can I teach myself to swim? And I thought, if I sign up to like an Ironman event, I've got 12 months to teach myself how to swim, because I either learn to swim or I drown.

So I signed up to my first, I kind of Ironman 70. 3 event. I've now done. three of those, about to do my third one of those in a couple months time. I, I've lifted weights for about 12 years big football or soccer fan as well. So yeah, I've always been a pretty active active person. So it's yeah, I like to think I've kind of got a few different areas to my expertise here to help as many people as I can, you know.

Yeah, Ironmans are fascinating to me. I've been in Copenhagen twice when the Ironman there was happening. And my husband and I were just eating ice cream on the side of the road. And all of [00:06:00] a sudden, all of these athletes just come running past. And the irony was not lost on us that we were just sucking down these delicious ice cream, and these people are just suffering.

Well, let's be honest, you had a better day on that day than they were having. So, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And then in Florida we have we have triathlons and things, but we also have like mini triathlons and I've always wanted to do one, but I am terrified. So if you swim in a lot of the water in Florida, you have the chance of either alligators or this thing called a brain eating amoeba that swims in through your nose and will kill you.

So that's sort of kept me going, you know, it's not worth it. I'm good. I don't know that I need to do that. Remind me never to do a triathlon in Florida. But saying that though, this you kind of lose that excuse because some triathlons do do swimming pool swims. So, therefore, you could do that. I thoroughly would recommend it, because a lot of people do them just for a bit of fun, you know?

Like, you don't have to go out there and try and win the race or anything. It's just a really nice, fun challenge. If you do, like, a super sprint or a sprint triathlon, they're a little bit shorter, you kind of enjoy it a [00:07:00] little bit more, and you can do them in swimming pools. Yeah. I will look into that. So you talked a little bit about your background.

What's your education? What do you do to maintain personal training? Is there a licensure? Like, how does that, how does that work for you? So, I was gonna say this, I was gonna say this will surprise people. It probably won't because of the standard of kind of health information and fitness information that you see online.

But the fitness world is very badly regulated. I think it's maybe a little bit better in the US and Canada compared to the UK. But there is, there's kind of next to no regulation, hence why you can have many people jumping online, creating a fitness account because they've got abs and suddenly they're an authority figure, right?

So yeah, I, I am qualified, however, most people aren't, unfortunately, within the fitness space. So, as I mentioned, I did a kind of Bachelor of Science with Honours degree in Occupational Therapy previously. So I did that for three years and then I retrained as a personal trainer. So it's kind of rep certified personal trainer SimSpa, they've [00:08:00] just changed all their branding.

I did that qualification and then I've done further nutrition education along the way because that's kind of my bag and the bit I really love speaking about. And the most recent thing I've done, I did a postgraduate diploma in performance, nutrition, and the next step is a master's when I eventually have the time around kind of running my business.

And my wife had a baby 10 months ago, so I'm a new dad as well. So yeah, it's a fun balancing act, but I'm, I'm constantly looking for courses online to kind of refine my expertise and try and provide the best service to my clients that I can. But unfortunately, a lot of coaches don't work like that.

And it is kind of like the Wild West really. What led you to this? Was there anything specific? No, like I know a lot of people that work in, in the fitness world, there's usually like a thing that's like, Oh, I, this happened, or I did this thing and suddenly I thought, I want to teach everyone else about this.

I, I didn't really have that. Mine was more of a, a real slow progression. I, as I said, I kind of did personal training as a bit of a stopgap. Because the [00:09:00] courses are quite quick. And kind of my background in sports and fitness. I, I, I found the course quite, quite straightforward. And then I was very kind of stereotypical bro.

Is that maybe the best way to describe it in the fitness space? Kind of big focus on strength training, don't do too much cardio, ruin your gains, counting macros meticulously for months or whatever. And it's just with time of working with some. Brilliant clients creating social media content and getting feedback, working with brilliant other practitioners that I've met along the way of them saying, Oh, actually this messaging, I don't think is quite right for this reason.

And I'm very evidence based. I'm always kind of looking for research papers to improve my practice too. And I think when you start kind of really delving into the research and you start working with everyday people, you realize that a lot of the content and the messaging around the fitness industry, isn't very helpful in any way.

It's almost like the fitness industry targets professional fitness people or people [00:10:00] who have exercised their entire life like that seems to be where All the content is directed at and then you have this wide pool of everyday people that just want to exercise a bit, feel a little bit better about themselves.

And those are the people that are crying out for help and the fitness industry ignores them. So that was kind of always my goal over the time of refining my practice so that I cared less about the fitness professionals and the extreme exercises. And I like working with the people who've never really exercised much in their life or don't really know what they're doing.

And I can. teach them the foundations that they can then move forward and flourish. I love that. It's, it's almost like it, it seems like if, if you don't understand how fitness works, or if you really have no interest in the mechanics of it, having someone like you is great because you can do that for you.

But what I also appreciate is that you're saying is, I really just kind of wanted to. Put the misconceptions and the mystery and take that away from the equation and say, you know, here's what you need to do. And these are the things that are helpful. And the [00:11:00] rest of this is just sort of noise of, you know, what kind of stuff either isn't going to help you or is just It's totally fake.

It's so true. And it's, it's really difficult to know which way to turn when, if you go online and you look for kind of nutrition advice you'll be, you'll be showing kind of keto intermittent fasting carnivore diet, all this kind of stuff. If you go and look for exercise advice, you just got type of fitness into Instagram and kind of all the images that come up are people that are completely ripped really low body fat levels.

clearly taking steroids, a lot of them. And like that's the norm, right? We're told this is what you need to look for. And this is what you need to strive for to be fit and healthy. And to bring you happiness. And I think the longer people strive for that, you start to learn that it's a load of nonsense and you just will never win when that is your focus.

As I said before, like you can absolutely have aesthetic goals. I like lifting weights because I like the challenge of building muscle and building strength. I find that really fun, but unlike [00:12:00] when I first started in the fitness industry, that was my entire focus. And I was never happy because they'll never be big enough.

They'll never be ripped enough. Like there's always going to be someone out there telling you that you're not. So by all means, have that as a goal and actually focus on your. actual health and well being and your, your kind of overall health and fitness rather than just how my body looks, because you just, you will never be happy.

Can I ask you a little bit about that? Because is it different when you train men and women, do you get different signals of what They're being told is the body that they should be striving for, because the, the influencers I've seen that are our men is exactly what you just described the extremely ripped situation.

And even when I've been to the gym myself, I, I can look around and go, Oh, no, that's, you're not healthy. That's not, that's not great what you're doing to yourself. But for women, there seems to be this. Push that either do it and get strong, which is great, but there's also the figure that you're should be trying to [00:13:00] achieve when you do this.

And, you know, everyone knows it's not attainable, but it's still there. And so I'm just wondering if you've noticed anything different, any sort of difference. Yeah, the, the ideals are definitely different depending on the kind of different category that people identify as like within for most women. And this is a big generalization using women in that way, but kind of using the kind of general stereotype that the goal usually is slim as possible.

And you are, you will be really healthy. Like your goal should just be to lose body fat. Like the amount of times that my clients come to me to work with me and they've worked with a trainer in the past, never even mentioned that they wanted weight loss and they put on a weight loss. You know, like this is just what people are told we have to strive for.

And then once again, stereotypically with men, it's with the rise of social media and superhero movies and kind of all these actors that are clearly taking steroids. And some of them have come out and spoken about the kind of extreme measures that are needed to achieve that look. Many of them haven't and none of them are are honest about their steroid use [00:14:00] when a lot of the kind of most famous prominent superhero actors are clearly taking steroids.

And then you also have kind of other sections of the community of kind of LGBTQI plus community, like the expectations on those people is even higher as well. Like just all these different demographics, but the underpinning message is kind of always the same. There is just like this look that we will have to strive for, like it's not on an individual basis, like right, what is right for this person as an individual, it's you are this part of society, and this is how you should look, and it's, it's infuriating, and I know, I know I've made a lot of kind of sweeping generalizations there, but that does sadly tend to be The way that the fitness industry pushes people.

No, I think you're absolutely right. And I think for LGBTQ folks, the history of that comes from HIV AIDS and not looking sick. So, you know, that, it's really important to point that out. Is the BMI, this might be an ignorant question, is the BMI the same in the UK as it is in the US? Is that something you all use?

Sadly, so [00:15:00] yeah, it's it's one of those where it's it was a tool initially introduced to look at a population wide model, like, as a population, if you sit in this camp, you're more likely to have this, and as a population wide model, it's, It's, it's got flaws, but it's, it's kind of, you kind of get what they're looking at.

However, the issue is when the BMI started being used on an individual basis. Like if I, I went to, I signed up to a new PCP general practitioner in the UK. And when I signed up to a new practice, I had a health check and I did it and I was bordering on. Overweight and obese category and I just think like if I'm someone who like, I'm, I naturally I'm quite a lean person.

I've lifted weights. I'm very active. Like if I'm told, oh, I'm unhealthy because of this random scale that takes nothing into consideration. Like, how are people in naturally larger bodies than me going to cope with this? Like, there's so many issues with it. I've worked with many clients who have wanted to try and conceive.

They're trying to start a family and Some of the strongest women I've [00:16:00] ever trained and the fittest people I've ever trained have had to adopt unhealthy practices to drop body fat levels to fit on a scale. So they'll be accepted for IVF treatment. So it just kind of shows how nonsensical sometimes these scales can be used.

And yeah, off the bat, you're told, Oh, look, my height and my weight, I'm unhealthy. It just doesn't make any sense. So, yeah. As a population tool. Yeah. Okay. Whatever. But if you're just a singular person looking at ways to improve your health, don't look at it because it's not helpful. I love that assessment of the BMI because I think here it's used for everything.

I mean, even if you want to get health or not health insurance, well, yeah, health insurance, but also if you want to get like life insurance, or if you want to have a surgery that may not be covered by your, like, there's just so many ways that it's used. To determine your health. And my husband's a great example.

So my husband is six, four and he, we went to a gym and they said, your ideal weight is 195 [00:17:00] and he is, if you picture Thor's broadness, like when this man gets on an airplane, people are like, Oh, oh dear. Because he's just a broad man. He's a farm boy and there is no way 190 pounds is ever going to work on him, but that was the recommended, the recommended thing.

And it's fascinating to me how quickly we've attached ourselves to that, like of, of all the things that we could be. You know, attaching ourselves to that's the one it is infuriating, but it just kind of bleeds out once again, then the fitness industry that is very good at kind of picking on an aspect of people's health or the way that we look and then monetizing it as well.

Like, it exploits that BMI scale awfully. So, yeah, it's the same here. I have private health insurance here in the UK and the same every time I open the app and I want to do anything with the app, it's telling me that I'm overweight, nearly obese. This doesn't like look at my activity levels and my diet and my, my general kind of habits that I've adopted throughout my life.

Like I'm, [00:18:00] I'm a healthy person as, as healthy as I can be within kind of what is in my power to change. And I'm still being told that it's not enough. It's just, it just doesn't make any sense. What do you think is the biggest misinformation that diet culture puts out? If you could list, if you could, you know, if the, like the first couple of things that come to mind when I say that.

I would say, first of all, the kind of what we've been chatting about already, that the way that our body looks is a direct indicator of how healthy we are, both physically and mentally, it's infuriating. You can have health across a wide spectrum of sizes, we can have health at every size, at all sizes there is possibility of health and it's really on an individual level there.

Where we're constantly told you have to strive for thinness to be healthy, I think is just really misleading and incredibly unhelpful. A lot of people come to me kind of striving to improve their health. And the first thing to think is like, I've just got to lose weight. So I'm going to adopt all these unhealthy behaviors to drop weight when in reality, we could actually improve their health faster [00:19:00] and better by adopting really healthy.

changes with their diet and with the way that they move their body, there'll be far more impactful than just shedding loads of weight off them. And I'm not going to say that it's never, ever important. I just think that the focus is completely in, in the wrong place there. Second one, so do you want me to go on to the next one or did you have?

Yeah, no, please. Yeah, yeah, sure. And then I guess the other one is that there is a best way of eating. Like, this is something that really winds me up, like, we're always looking for the best diet that everyone should follow, and we're always told it's the Mediterranean diet, we should all eat like that because that is the best diet in the world, and we, we don't kind of look at the wider situation in terms of maybe why that diet is looked upon as one of the best diets, it might just be that the way that kind of society and our culture is set up in the way that we eat.

kind of choose our food, what kind of food we're buying, how we consume that food, whether it's with friends and family, we take a bit longer with the food that we're making, we're not kind of rushing food down so we can get back to work, because that's what's [00:20:00] glorified within our society. Like, there's all these different things where you'll have different doctors selling you, once again, a keto diet, or the intermittent fasting diet, or the Atkins, or Weight Watchers, or Slimming World, whatever it is.

We're always striving to find that best diet and there just isn't one. The best way of eating and the best way of exercising is individual. The way that I eat that's perfect for me will be awful for you, so we shouldn't follow the same diet, right? So the fact that we're telling an entire population that this is the way that you need to eat is just It doesn't make any sense.

So those kind of two are the ones that stand out really. I love those examples because it leads me really well into my next question. What made you decide to talk about this stuff on Instagram and social media?

I don't really know. As once again, it's just been a really slow, slow progression. Whereas when I first started creating content on social media, it was very educational and kind of these are the facts and this is the research. And yes, that definitely has its place, but I think people don't really [00:21:00] connect with it.

it's a little bit boring for social media as well. So I don't, I just finally realized that the way that I was creating content, the way I was coaching people was just, wasn't really helping. So it's been a good bit of time where I've just been refining my approach. I also think there's a lot of power and I don't want to sound like a white knight coming into the fitness space by saying this, but I think it's important in the fact that.

I look how the fitness industry says we're supposed to look like we're told that we're supposed to be kind of quite lean, a little bit of muscle, you know, like I'm a white straight guy, like this is what fitness should look like. And I think it can be really powerful when I come out and say like, yeah, fitness can look like this, but it doesn't really need to.

And so if I can then use my platform. to then kind of amplify the voices of those within the fitness space that maybe don't kind of get as much airtime because of the way they look or or for whatever reason then I think that that can be really powerful. So That's kind of why I'm here and creating the stupid videos on Tok to.

They're not, [00:22:00] but they're not stupid. Don't discount that. They are. A couple of weeks ago of you in the shower. It's it's what's great about it is it's, it's quick. It's, it's to the point and it very succinctly sums up. What will number one, what you're trying to do, but also the kind of dangers of blindly following folks that clearly have no like business being the ones to tell you what to do with your body.

And at the end of the day, your body is pretty important. Like you kind of need to treat it properly. So that's, what's great about them. Okay. I have two more questions. The first one is when, when you, when you hear someone say body positive movement, what do you think of what comes to mind for you? So sadly, actually, the first thing that comes to my mind is people exploiting the term body positivity, just because that's just the nature of social media.

I'm sure if you, if anyone's on their phone now listening to this, just jump onto whatever social media platform you use, [00:23:00] type in hashtag body positivity, and it won't be long before you see. fat burning workout or a before and after photo or whatever, you know, and that's not what it is. And I talk a lot about kind of body positivity.

I, I also am scared to sit myself in one camp. Some people will talk more about kind of body neutrality, which may be, I kind of sit. sits better with me. Because with body positivity, we should be looking at all types and sizes and whatever of bodies in a positive light. But I think that that's really difficult to do for a lot of people to say, Oh, your body's awesome.

Like, look at it. It's amazing. When some people. Sadly, you're just never going to have that view. Whereas I think if we can sit more in the body neutrality camp, where we're just a little bit indifferent to our body. And it's not all about the way that our body is looking. It's more about kind of the behaviors and the actions that we take around that.

I think that has a lot more meaning. So the body positivity movement is amazing. It's, it's a space that, that wasn't designed or created for someone like me, but it's been so powerful in making really positive shift [00:24:00] within the fitness industry. But unfortunately, like everything within the fitness space, it gets co opted and turned into something pretty awful and exploited badly.

So yeah, that's kind of the first thing that really springs to mind. I'm so glad that you mentioned the before and after photo. So one of the things I do, so my focus is I look at gender in media and how pop culture presents gender and all of that stuff. Normally I'm interested in how people use Pop culture to heal after they've experienced trauma, but I do a lot of media literacy just by like the nature of my, you know, world and what I do.

And one of the things I emphasize in my classes and my research is that you can that before and after photo. Is it can be anything. I mean, somebody can take that picture and do anything they want to it. You do not know if this is a real person in front of you. And I think that becomes the danger of the before and after, you know, I, I joined a gym and they wanted me to do a before photo.

And I was like, no, because there's no point. This is not, I'm not here to be a before I'm here to, I [00:25:00] think my exact words were, I want to do one pull up and I want to be able to climb the stairs when I'm 90. And they looked at me like I had just said that the sky is falling, you know, because these are my fitness goals.

One pull up, climb the stairs in 50 years. That's, that's the goal. That's a solid goal. Solid goal, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And, and yet the, the idea is you do this before picture and you see all of this, you know, totally different you, but I'm still me. It's still the same person. Yeah. And make sure in the before picture you look really sad and unhappy and wear really horrible clothes.

And terrible posture, have you noticed? Really bad posture, like bad posture, yeah, hunched over, like bad lighting, everything. And then that after photo, made it up, smile, wear some well fitted clothing, make up, do a bit of a workout before, so you got a bit of a pump on, like they're just, they're ridiculous, they are completely ridiculous.

I'm not against people using before and after photos, I always like to emphasize that. If that is a way that you want to monitor progress, I'm using an air [00:26:00] quotation marks, then, then that's cool. Go for it. I just relying or trusting anything on a before and after photo is just incredibly dangerous that 99 percent of personal trainees use them to sell their coaching because, Hey, look, I made your body smaller.

Therefore I know how to make you healthy. It just doesn't make any sense. I can shove someone on. a starvation diet. I can get them to exercise every day and run themselves into the ground. I can completely destroy their mental health by restricting everything they love. But guess what? Their body's smaller, therefore come work with me because I'm an awesome trainer.

It's just, I hate them. I completely hate them on social media and I wish that coaches would just stop posting them completely. It's never going to happen. But yeah, that's my thoughts. Makes personal transport angry when you say that on social media though. I understand that, but at the same time, that's the stuff that needs to be said.

Agreed, agreed. Okay, the last question. This is something I ask everybody, and it's okay if you need to think for a second. I like to ask everyone, since the podcast is called Most Popular, Who or what would you say should be voted most popular? [00:27:00] Oh,

that's a really difficult question. Can it literally be anything? Anything, anything you want. I, can I go really cheesy? being kind to people. I know it's really, it's really sad. I know I've got a 10 month old son. I'm quite emotional and cheesy at the moment. So I apologize to anyone listening to this, but I, I work on social media.

Like my, a lot of my job is online. A lot of people are very, very mean to others when they know nothing about their situation. And I just think that. Every good scenario that's come to me through my work or through social media has just been from me showing kindness to other people with no expectation of receiving anything in return.

And I think if more people could have that that approach to just life in general, the world would be a much nicer place. God, that was really cheesy, wasn't it? Sorry. No, no. It's very British of you to think that's cheesy. I love that very much. I'm from, I'm from Northern [00:28:00] Michigan. We don't, we don't tend to share that stuff either.

So I totally understand your experience. No, I think it's wonderful. And I think one of the things that I really advocate folks for, and maybe the students get sick of me saying it, but pay attention to who you're following and if it doesn't bring you joy or help you in some way. Then you're missing out because you're right, that kindness is there and there's, there's accounts and things you can do to see that.

And I love that. I love that answer. That was a great answer. It's so true. And I think it's important as like a content creator on social media to not take it personally when someone unfollows me as well, because I know that there's a time and a place in everyone's life for when they need your help and support.

So I always kind of find it quite refreshing when someone who I've maybe engaged with lots in the past steps away from my content, because I think, okay, maybe. They're not in a good place. They don't want to see someone talking about exercise, nutrition, and mindset, or whatever, and Yeah. So even in the, what could be viewed as a very negative thing when someone's removing you from social media, I kind of like to put a positive spin on it and be like, okay, they might not be in the best place.

And that's the reason they're stepping [00:29:00] away. So thank you so much for talking with me. This was so wonderful. Cool. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. I, you know, I love, you probably get my vibe here. I love chatting about anything fitness and nutrition related. So whenever I'm given a platform to come and kind of spread a positive message, I'm, I'm there.

So thank you so much. Thank you again for listening. You can find more episodes of Most Popular on iTunes, Spotify, YouTube, wherever you get your podcasts. You can find information on Michael in the show notes. Please take the time to follow, rate, and review, and if you are so inclined, and you are not one of my current students, a Patreon for most popular is set up and linked also in show notes.

More information, including additional resources for educators, can be found on my website, adriantreer beaneck. com. Guess what? That's also in show notes, and I am on Instagram at @dr.adriennetb Thanks again for listening. A massive special thanks as always to my students for encouraging me to keep making these and I will see you next time.